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Put homosexuals behind a fence until they die out? REALLY?

 

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Prison fence/Google Image

Recently, I watched an incendiary diatribe labeled a sermon from a pastor in North Carolina. As a part of his civic duty to defend North Carolina’s Amendment One, he offered his “solution” for “queers and lesbians”: remove them from society and let them perish.

Put all the queers and lesbians behind a fence and airdrop food until they all die out? Really? Examples that parallel this type of behavior exist throughout human history. I’ll allow your intellect to cull through them and their success while I choose to focus on one.

Forcing people labeled as LGBTQ outside of the larger community is just like the treatment of lepers in ancient Israel. You remember those folks: the ones that had to yell “unclean” as they walked along, just so normal people wouldn’t accidentally touch them. The ones that Jesus stopped for, talked to, touched. Oops.

Throughout his life, Jesus often mingled with those that were socially unacceptable, much to the chagrin of the elite. Jesus broke the social norms of his day in a litany of ways. He spoke with women (John 4:27), allowed children to occupy his time (Luke 18:15), and even physically touched lepers — a catchall designation for those so handicapped by disease they were ostracized from society (Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13). From eating and associating with the poor (Matthew 9:13), to improving their status (such as raising the son of the poor widow in Luke 7:11-16), to affording them high levels of respect when no one else would (such as defending the naked woman brought before him with an accusation of adultery in John 8:1-11) Jesus demonstrated what Tim Keller described as a priority of care for the least respected people of his culture. 

Why must so many of us define ourselves by what we are not? By what we are against? Even if someone were to blithely say what they are “for” our brains are so wired in a dichotomist manner by now that we instantly jump to the negative form of what someone is saying: we conclude that if they are for something, then logically, they are against the opposite. Why opposites? Why are we settling for either/or stances? Where is the nuance? Where is the beauty?

Benjamin Barber called people who cling to dichotomist, either/or thought “adult-infants,” stating that the pervasiveness of this mentality dominates almost all areas of society.

“Dogmatic judgments of black and white in politics and religion come to displace the nuanced complexities of adult morality, while the marks of perpetual childishness are grafted onto adults who indulge in puerility without pleasure, and indolence without innocence.”

Certainly, there are myriad sources of emotion and different philosophies that contribute to the topic of legalizing same-sex marriage. To refuse valuable people from sitting at the table cannot be an option.

There is a responsibility in followership, especially when a “leader” sets a course that is so hateful. No matter you stance on the issue of same-sex marriage, I believe it is time for silent Christians to take a stand against the type of bullying exemplified by this “sermon.”

Topics: Culture, Gender & Sexuality
Beliefs: Christian - Protestant/Other
Tags: amendment one, charles worley, gays behind fence, jesus and socially unacceptable, lgbt, lgbt and christian, love all, tim keller

Comments

  1. Ugh…really, these type of nuts are not worth giving the time or light of day. Giving them any airtime only creates more stereotypical conclusions about anyone that opposes gay marriage. Lumping loons with any group by association is weak thinking and actually undermines legitimate debate or dialogue. It’s like using the word “Hitler” in any political debate….it’s just plain dumb.

  2. Thanks, Daryl, for so passionately inviting folks to think about the possibilities for conversation.  There are various thoughts around the issue of same-sex marriage, but the most poignant conversations we can create, facilitate, and encourage remain as you pointed out, that the bigger question is how we continue to “refuse valuable people from sitting at the table….”  Let’s use such examples of “preaching” as points of invitation to come out of our silent closets (pun intended) and hold authentic conversations who is still not fully invited, welcomed, and seated at the table set for all.  Peace.

  3. Should read “conversations about who is still not fully invited, welcomed, and seated ....”

  4. Eric… agree/disagree. On sports comment boards, I usually go with the policy of “don’t feed the troll/hater,” and regarding this topic, I agree that it is a shame that such sentiment gets airtime in the first place and that it can promote a generalized stereotype of what Christianity is… that being said, once the airtime is given to these types of sentiments, I feel it is my responsibility to address them to show a different point of view from within the Christian community. I feel that too many of us, by not addressing it, are the silent kids on a playground that know the bully is wrong and that he will eventually be put to shame, but don’t do much, if anything to support the present targets of said bully.

    I suppose I should write that even if I didn’t have any friends in the LGBTQ community, I needed to address the issue… But in truth, I have too many friends in the LGBTQ community to remain silent on this one.

    Marj, agreed… we should use such instances as opportunity to better engage issues of marginalization. Obviously, a blog is not the location to do so. This is the arena of the proverbial spark. So, I hope that conversations can occur where it counts (places of power and areas of differing opinion).

  5. This is the part of organized religion that seems to always perplex and frustrate me.  I will never understand “judgmental christians”.  I find that god’s word can often be used against people when it comes to these issues.  How sad. 

    Would god would turn against one of us based on our sexuality?  Who are we to decide who he loves? 

    I believe we should love each other and be an example of god’s love and acceptance of others.  Just because someone goes to church every Sunday does not make them a better christian or closer to god.  Some people are just more public about their faith than others.  Do those of us that attend church have a guarantee of entry to heaven?  Especially those that place judgement on others and turn their backs on those who need his love the most.  Is this an example of what a “christian” is? 

    Each of us will have our own judgement day.  Until then, I agree we should stand up and show love and support to ALL of god’s children.  Put our personal beliefs aside.

    Having children has opened my mind so much.  There is such innocence in their faith.  Do I want to tell them that their best friend who was born out of wedlock is a sinner?  No.  Do I want to talk to them about what my beliefs are regarding marriage and family?  Yes.  Is teaching them to judge others that have different beliefs embracing christianity?

  6. Daryl,
    Valid and well put response.

    I guess I am tiring of the thin slice of ignorant homophobic’s getting the large slice of the pie focus these days. If I wrote over and over and over about the injustices of some gay bigots or atheist despots who are perpetrating ugliness…I imagine some would echo my frustration.

    Where’s all the outrage over pedophiles?
    The amount of abuse going on in homes where families are being destroyed by the sexual deviance and abuse of the perps is miles and miles deeper than any of the legitamate issues facing homosexuals. I guess I feel like the amount of time that is given to this issue by comparison to other critical issues is really, really off balance.

    I am sorry, if that offends those hurting by such stupidity but even MLK took on Vietnam in the height of his Civil Rights crusade. Can we see a move of all this momentum to some other serous issues facing our commiuntites too?

  7. Eric and Daryl -

    I agree that this pastor is shameful, but on what basis do you actually criticize him?  Is it really as a Christian or based on the Bible?  I think he could probably make a strong biblical case for his position.  After all, in the OT, God called for the execution of homosexuals.  Appealing to Jesus and the NT won’t help you.  According to the bible, it is still true that GOD required death to homosexuals.  So, are you also criticizing the behavior of God?

  8. Yep.
    Abraham did it.

  9. Wow….this is a fascinating conversation.  I think the LGBT issue in religion today is a substantial issue about welcome and inclusivity as well as one that leads us to the theological questions of sin and salvation and the meaning of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.  So, while it is a substantial issue, it is also a symbolic issue for our day that leads to every big discussion about the practices and beliefs in Christianity—and other religions.

    Slavery and the Civil Rights movement were substantial and symbolic issues in a different age.  MLK realized in his spiritual development that there is deep linkage between many of the issues.  Prejudices pushed African-Americans into poverty more frequently than others so MLK began to address the poverty issue.  The poverty issue caused him to look at the Vietnam War because of the immorality of the money spent there and not on poverty. 

    In my church, theology around sin, salvation, and the meaning of the Incarnation are not hot topics.  But, when we explore being Open and Affirming to LGBT folk—what that extravagant welcome really means then the assumed theology of people emerges and gets articulated.  I am finding that the core question is the one that St. Anselm asked in his 1097 CE book, “Cur Deus Homo”, Why God Became Man is really at the center of everything.  I am not satisfied with his atonement explanation but his question brings us back to Creation and the nature of God and humanity.  In simplistic terms, we end up with one of two theologies that determines the course of the rest of our thinking:  1)  Negative Theology:  Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of the creation of humanity and it had to be fixed.  Jesus was sent to fix it and when we accept his sacrifice, we receive the salvation, the redemption that is the fix or 2) Positive Theology;  All Creation is good.  Adam and Eve did not destroy that but did expose the vulnerability of humanity because of our freedom to think that we do not need God.  We are created in the image and likeness of God.  Jesus came to show us the way to live out of our truest identity as ‘spiritual beings having a human experience’.  As fully human and fully divine, he shined a light on the vision of God’s kingdom/kindom for all of us to strive. In the walk to the cross he showed us the spiritual journey involves facing our own suffering, dying to ourselves, so we can rise to something bigger than ourselves—the vision of the kingdom/kindom for all creation.

    Read Tony Jones book, “A Better Atonement”  http://www.amazon.com/Better-Atonement-Depraved-Doctrine-ebook/dp/B007MD0AK8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337879712&sr=8-1 Anyway….the religious issue around LGBT brings us into the practiced theology of people more than anything else I know in our day.

  10. Eric - Are you admitting to criticizing God?  If so, wow, you believe you are smarter and more moral than God?

  11. Eric, I understand your frustration at how hot button topics receive more attention than others. I am with you on this. For example, why don’t we hear many sermons about white-collar crime, etc.? I think that Jim does a great job of addressing how hot issues can be used to mine the depth of our theology, thanks Jim.

    Ryan, thanks for your concern. Could you tie the strings of your thought together a little better for me? Help me understand your hermeneutic a bit more, and I can try to give you a worthy response.

  12. Daryl -

    I simply don’t understand the basis for your criticism.  I don’t see how it can be truly based on the bible because God endorsed this pastor’s sentiments (actually worse) in the OT.  So, is your disgust at this sort of position equally applicable to OT teaching?

  13. Jim: great overview of those two ways of looking at the atonement discussion, I’d probably flesh out the first view a bit more from my experience and perspective but I appreciate how you articulated the latter. Personally I think Tony teased more than satisfied much in that book.

    Ryan,
    I come from a perspective that views the idea of the people of God as those who, like the word Israel means, ‘wrestle with God and men’. I think the process of wrestling with God is invited, ‘Come let us reason together’ is a invitation to life of honest engagement with God, His ways, word and works. I treasure the gift of freedom within my experience of God. The views we often portray of how to handle the Bible reveal more about us than others. Abraham, David, Job, Moses, Jonah, Jeremiah, Sarah, and many others argued, questioned, complained, put on trial, negotiated, etc…I find much room for the mind and the heart in this walk.

  14. Eric -

    Just about everyone who questioned God was chastised for doing so.  This isn’t just about God wanting people engage with “Him”, “He” apparently sanctioned the killing of homosexuals because it was considered an abomination.  Your position on this is quite bizarre, as if God were saying “Hey I’m going to sanction the death penalty for all sorts of things, but feel free to engage me on the issue.”

  15. Ryan,

    I will acknowledge that my lens is an attempt to understand God’s character and expectation through the life and teachings of Jesus as expressed in the Gospels. I have done a great deal of work in Biblical theology as well as Systematic theology. And while I generally do not like the notion of prioritizing one over the other, when my back is to a wall and facing a firing squad, I will set Gospel revelation as the hierarchical determinant of understanding the rest of scripture.

    It is this hermeneutic that allows me to appreciate Jesus’ own reinterpretation of Leviticus 20:10 in John 8:1-11. If I were to follow what you are attempting to do, it seems I would be forced to understand that Jesus clearly disdained the OT because he prevented those in civic authority from fulfilling what the law clearly stated. Perhaps you might suggest that this issue was different because it was adultery and not homosexuality. I would suggest that he still stopped the fulfillment of what Levitical law required. If Jesus is allowed to do this, than he supersedes an aspect of the law, yes? If so, we must seek a new understanding of the law. If not, then Jesus is guilty of breaking the law himself, and rests under God’s judgment… a guilt that requires death and also consequently destroys the theological concept of atonement/justification: our faith is misplaced and being a Christian becomes little more than being a part of the Rotary or Costco.

    This is not merely my own conjecture. I have reconciled this disparity by seeking to understand the deeper reality of Jesus’ intention: he did not seek to excuse guilt; he was bent on transformation, not destruction. I have gleaned this stance through seminary from the wisdom of some fairly solid evangelical thinkers: Henry, Willard, Guder, Wright, etc.

    Ryan, in seriousness, thank you for your passion for alerting me to my inconsistency. Your last comment stated that you “simply” don’t understand my position. I believe that this is in part due to the manner of communication, and partially due to my inability to convey concepts at times. I more strongly believe that this is because there is not a simple answer. I’m curious how you would reconcile this type of disparity…

  16. I’m not sure I would reconcile it.  To me, it seems merely to expose the inconsistency of the Bible itself.  Relying on Jesus still doesn’t change the fact that God “Himself” allegedly endorsed the death penalty for all manner of “crimes”, which don’t seem to merit death.  But since God is never immoral, it seems that you have no basis for thinking such a position inherently immoral or blameworthy.

  17. I am bizarre.
    That amazing attribute aside, I also find myself able to live in the tension between understanding and not understanding. I see law and I see Christ, through him I die to the law but find life apart from it. It’s a mystery indeed. How God can condemn and redeem and save within himself.

  18. Eric:  I did not mean to downplay the first atonement description.  It is more complicated, I agree and would like to hear more from you on this.  I agree that Tony was offering a tease…as his book kind of left you in middle.  However, in a short book….it is a good introduction to the diversity in the Atonement discussion.

    Ryan:  You are a little too sure of what God says and I realize that it is because you read the Bible literally. I see the Bible as a journey through time of God’s Covenant Love with his people and the ups and downs of our human response. Like a parent, God provides in different ways at different times for the needs of the people depending on where they are in their life and spiritual journey.  Leviticus does not in a direct way apply to us today—clearly not in its specifics are we would almost all be abominations. 

    I find instructive part of the Gospel passage we will use in church this Sunday for Pentecost from John 16:12-13, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”  Seems to me that we have a Still Speaking God who is working with us in Covenant Love along our journey—providing as we need in our current situation now and leading us to the more that is possible.

  19. Calling it “tension” or “mystery” is a copout.  There is a very clear inconsistency here and it amazes me how Christians will do anything to save the belief and shirk the issue.  The ultimate trump card: run into the impervious fortress of “mystery”.

  20. I’m not sure how to progress what I understand to be a conversation, or whether attempting to do so would have any benefit to you or me or anyone who might still be reading. I’m all for discussing, and I agree that their are inconsistencies within the compiled text of the Bible. I disagree with your last statements, however, but I’m not sure you’re into this for a discussion so much as proving something at this point. Back to the original comment you made about this preacher being able to justify his stance via the OT record, yes he could. It would not be a stance that had strong horizontal validity within the OT as he would still need to reconcile certain statements within the record. It would not be a stance that had strong vertical validity across the NT because he would have to reconcile it with the normative practice of Jesus, or the developed theology of the church over time. As for my position on this, I’ll continue to promote the idea that people who self-identify as Christians must enter into a nuanced and respectful conversation about differences of belief rather than force dichotomous stances.

  21. Ryan:  The word “mystery” can be a cop out, that is for sure but that is not Eric’s style—he leans into tough issues.  In its best sense, Mystery is an acknowledgement that no matter how we grow into our faith—God is so big, so amazing, so wondrous—that no one can fully comprehend the greatness of God in how far His/Her Love extends and the true depth of God’s truth.  If you think you can, then I think we risk human arrogance.  God is not finished with us yet.

  22. Jim - Really, it doesn’t matter if it applies directly today or not.  It applied at one point, so killing homosexuals, in itself, cannot be declared inherently immoral on your position.  Also, there is no other way but to take such a passage literally.  There is no allegory in God’s command to put homosexuals to death or to not suffer a witch to live, etc.

  23. Jim - Your argument seems to be: God is so beyond our understanding we should just continue to believe in clearly inconsistent things as long as it is claimed to come from God.

  24. Daryl - What last statements do you disagree with?

  25. Ryan:  This is not like a light switch with two positions of ON and OFF.  I am not saying that we understand nothing of God’s truth and the full meaning of His/Her Creation.  I am saying that we do not understand everything either.  Do you really think that you totally comprehend God—fully and completely receiving His Love and fully and completely knowing all truth from God. If you do, well I am sorry…this fallible sinner has nothing more to say.

  26. Jim -

    The answer to your question is “no”, because I am not convinced that a God even exists.  In fact, it seems likely to me that one does not exist.  From the standpoint of the Bible, however, this seems like one of those clear cut issues that one CAN understand.  The inconsistency is glaringly apparent.

  27. “But since God is never immoral, it seems that you have no basis for thinking such a position inherently immoral or blameworthy.”

    First, when I attempt to combine this with your previous sentence I’m not entirely sure that I know what you are saying, . Your rhetoric/writing style is a little jumpy and I’m afraid I didn’t make the connection point that you intended. Second, I believe I do have a basis for my position as I attempted to explain earlier. I did not link God’s-never-being-immoral-ality to the immorality of this preacher. My moral judgment (if you wish to call it such) of his words and leadership was based on his incorporation of an either/or, hateful stance that is contrary to what many wise people consider to be a valid approach towards revelation. My other moral judgment was to challenge the silence of many people who have a different view to express their opinion.

    Did you understand me to have communicated something differently?

  28. A cop out…hmmm, ma be in my twenties or thirties but not now. Simply a witness to my journey of not being able to answer many questions that face us in this world. I’ve learned more from Presence than Propositions, not a relinquishing of reasoned pursuit but an acknowledgment that reason and mystery have to learn to live within the human mind and heart and experience.

  29. My argument is this:

    Assumption 1: The Bible is God’s revelation of “Himself”.
    Assumption 2: God is morally perfect and never does, commands or endorses anything immoral.

    Premise:  In the Bible, God commanded that homosexuals be executed.
    Conclusion: It follows that executing homosexuals is not inherently immoral.

    As a consequence it is not even morally blameworthy to believe that homosexuals should be executed.

  30. Eric - I don’t really understand your response.  Presence over propositions?

  31. Jesus is God’s revelation of Himself.
    The difference is critical.

  32. Eric - How does that make sense?  The only way you know about Jesus is via the bible.  Also, it is generally agreed that Jesus affirms the entire bible.

  33. thanks for breaking it down. tight and orderly. i can appreciate that the mathematician in you wants a proof like that. but what happens when math and logic is used in the social arena? i could certainly be wrong, but in my research experience, sociological situations don’t lend themselves to this type of thinking: what would you do with outlying points in a quantitative study to prove or disprove a social hypothesis, for example?

    you may want a clean formula here, but it won’t happen, as the biblical record offers outliers in the discussion and it is a record involving sociological influence all the way through. lot’s of great thinkers from the enlightenment on have attempted to overlay the structure of reason and logic onto the biblical record with varying degrees of success. you should engage those thinkers as they have a great deal to offer, both in favor of the approach and against it. perhaps this may progress your pondering of whether or not there is a God.

  34. Daryl -

    Math and logic are used in everything.  In fact, the whole notion of statistical analysis is mathematical in nature.  The notion of outliers are a mathematical idea, which can be and are dealt with within models.

    I wonder though what you mean by the biblical record offering outliers?  In what sense does that affect my argument?  If you agree to the assumptions and to the premise being true, then the conclusion is inescapable.  A statistical analysis isn’t relevant here.  Unless, of course, you mean to suggest that you take issue with one of the assumptions.

    The only other meaning you could have is that God is somehow a moral relativist.  In other words, it was okay to execute homosexuals in that culture and time, but not in this one.  But this seems rather arbitrary.  The obvious question is: what changed?  Why and how did it turn from being moral to immoral?

  35. I’m ok with God being God and executing whoever He deems worthy of death. We give that power to the state in law, judgment and war. Humans determine matters with far less ability to determine what is right or wrong. I’m not God.

    I’m responsible for my actions and my primary example is Christ. I’m a follower of His teachings and His life. The gospel of the new covenant is what opened my heart. Jesus, changed me, not Moses, Joshua, David or the moral code of the Israelites.

    I was converted by an encounter with Christ, through the gospels by the Holy Spirit. It was far deeper than an intellectual assessment of various issues. I had an encounter with the Divine and as a messed up youth I found deep change accessible through a relationship with God. The scriptures were woven throughout that turning but my soul was involved with a communion that extended beyond matters I understood. Life was born and Ive been playing catch up and dress up to that owing life ever since.

  36. Notice, though, that humans generally have good reasons for executing someone.  If God exists, do you really think that mandating execution for homosexuals, working on the sabbath, etc. is something God would do?  Is there really any good reason for that?

    As for your last paragraph, I cannot make much sense out of it.  What do you mean by “an encounter with Christ, through the gospels by the Holy Spirit”?  How do you know you actually encountered anything divine?

  37. Ryan,
    I’ve read through the string and I am glad you are asking the tough questions that deserve an answer regarding the truth of Scripture.  I don’t believe there are any inconsistencies in the Bible, but only either our laziness in not digging in to find all the treasure that is there, or our unwillingness to accept the God Who, as you have correctly stated, has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.  His nature, His Being, is far above our human abilities to fully understand, and so if I am having trouble with a passage I accept my limited abilities, pray and ask God for more understanding and wait for that, all the while continuing with my study and saturation in the Word. 

    God’s Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, which gave God the ability, in righeousness, to postpone the immediate judgement of sin until a future time of judgement if it pleases Him.  Homosexuality is an insult to God’s intended order of things.  He destroyed Sodom and Gommorah as judgement on them and a lesson for us that He means what He says.  All sin, mine, yours and everyone else’s is enough to condemn us from eternal separation from God, but His grace through the death of Christ allows us, first, to be forgiven of all that sin, and then to be reconciled and accepted.

  38. Ryan,
    One thing I meant to start with was that I have watched the video clip and it is disgusting.  What is disgusting about it is his arrogance, misrepresetation of God’s character and his hateful attitude.  Even though God will not tolerate sin, His heart is one of compassion.  The Bible says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.  He planned that He would sacrifice His own Son that we who had no use for Him or His Son could be saved.

  39. Or…?

    Don’t get me wrong: I’m well aware of the pervasiveness of mathematics and grateful for its immense value to descriptive analysis in all sorts of venues. 

    It seems we have come down to a difference in presuppositions. You seem to be seeking empirical proof that rests on descriptive logic. If that’s accurate, then know I respect it. And that I don’t think that is the only means of understanding and knowledge. 

    My presupposition is a faith-based theology that values logic, systematics and empiricism but allows for the possibility of something outside of the system as well. This has been developed over years of study and experience. My guess is, you will read this and claim I am illogical. I’m ok with that.

    I appreciate your desire to challenge to my thought and philosophy. However, I’m not going to engage a reductive equation that incorporates forced choice when it concerns issues of a greater being, socio-philosophical-political expression over thousands of years and myriad cultures, textual criticism and numerous other disciplines that all require interpretation of quantitative and qualitative data. Even when disciplines such as mathematics and logic is incorporated, the matter of interpretation of data will continue to occur. If you look back at the variety of comments from all on this single post, there is no disputing that nuances in faith and hermeneutic abound. This has been my position all along. It seems my interpretation appears hypocritical, or illogical, or something else to you. It may be that if we differ on such a deep presupposition regarding the conceptual framework of life, our conversation is at an impasse.

    Any suggestions, or do we just part ways for the moment?

  40. Daryl- From my standpoint I think you hit the nail on the head.  There are vast different presuppositions in this world, and there have been throughout history.  It’s great to respect each of our varied viewpoints.  God and the Bible cannot be mathematically, logically, or scientifically proved or disproved because as human beings we simply lack the reference point.

  41. Well…I’m not convinced that humans have reflected ‘good reason’ on many fronts…especially in matters to moral judgment, I think history reflects the reality of the biblical teaching of sin and the fall.

    As for the histories of the OT, the laws and the moral codes…there is much I understand and much I have absolutely no idea about. There’s much that quite frankly doesn’t seem to reflect the God I’ve come to know. I am not denying the reality or truth of anything revealed there…but the holiness of God has been a different reality in my experience. The demands, rules and requirements of righteousness and holiness have been fulfilled in my understanding of the gospel. I now experience and taste the joy of goodness, morality, holiness and righteousness, while living free from the condemnation of my inability to measure up to those standards. I see the strictness and exacting demand of perfection required in the law and I rest in the perfection of Jesus, whose life and death and resurrection fulfilled that law for me.

    Now by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I am being changed more and more into that image over time. My heart has changed, i’ve been experiencing a direct inner change in motivations, desires, and even thinking in my contact with the Word and Spirit through out my life. Some season more intense, others quiet growth, some powerful encounters, miracles and visitations…other times, silence, absence, darkness. I am being sanctified as the bible describes it, but it’s an experience of love not fear.

    My encounter with the Divine has been evidenced by myriad’s of situations, events both supernatural and transformational, fruit that has been goodness and maturity and some stuff that was only explainable as coming from God. I can’t convince you of my journey, I can only witness to the change in my life, the goodness of my experience and point you to Jesus, the One who got this ball rolling in my own life.

    I know that leans deep into the experiential side of faith…but hey, I am a charismatic, a self confessed mystic and contemplate and I carry that ‘get out jail free’ card in my wallet, that puts me in the ‘oh he’s one of those kind of Christians’, corner, but i’m ok with that.

  42. Dennis - 

    Your position seems utterly circular.  You now have no basis on which to judge if something is from God or not.  All one has to do is say, “well God is too great for us to understand”.

  43. Daryl -

    Well, we are probably at an impasse.  Suffice it to say, I don’t believe you when you say you value logic.  Sure you give it the ol’ nod when it works in your favor, but as soon as it turns on you, well back to the fortress of faith.  To me, faith based theology sounds like nothing more than confirmation bias and begging the question couched in religious language.

  44. Bruce -

    It may not be possible to prove or disprove with certainty that God exists, but the Bible is another story.  Also, this fact does not bode well for your position; you cannot hide behind it.  That perfect certainty cannot be achieved either way does not mean your position is therefore rational.

  45. Eric -  None of that makes any sense to me, but great for you…

  46. Ryan, you are welcome for the engagement, wow, how about showing a tad bit of congeniality to those who spend time engaging you.

  47. Well, Eric, it is rather frustrating when all I am ever met with is, “hey, good question/point, that logic stuff is wonderful, but God is just too mysterious, great and wonderful.  It’s a matter of faith, so, therefore, I am still right.”

  48. Ryan,

    As I hesitate to enter the fray. I do have a question. There are four church people who are or have been pastors or church leaders in the above posts and another by a committed lay person, and each one oppose what the Pastor in North Carolina on the grounds such as ones based on Jesus’ teaching on loving your neighbor and directly from their understanding of their faith. Many national Christian leaders came out against this argument about penning up LGBTQ in holding fences as unchristian. You cite, vaguely, the old testament. Then you said that their is no way from your understanding of the Bible that Christian can come out against such a proposition. In fact, according to you, they should be joining the pastor in North Carolina. So the logical conclusion is either you know more about their faith than they do and they are ignorant about their own faith, or you rpremise about knowing their faith better than they do is false. Mathematically they probability of a majority of church leaders being ignorant about their own faith while an Atheist in Spokane knows what they belief better than they do is minimal. it seems greatest logical conclusion would be that you have a false premise. Though there is a small chance that the pastors, church leaders and other Christians coming out against the pastor in North Carolina are incorrect about Jesus’ command to love neighbor and you are correct. But the good money is on you having false premise. A case of simple logic.

    Presence over propositions that you cite is absolutely correct. Considering the books of the BIble are not series of propositions, but a complex set of literature that spans poetry, narratives, discourses and whole lot of other genres. Yes, there are some sort propositional content, mostly the wisdom literature in the proverbs, but for the most part it is not an Enlightenment treatises and treating it like that will lead to misreadings. This why the quotes about needing the Holy Spirit to understand the scripture are commonly cited. Presence over propositions, that is something you should ponder.

  49. I have pondered “presence over propositions” and it doesn’t make sense to me.  Narratives and discourses do make propositional claims.  In fact, just about every genre makes propositional claims in some way, even if not directly.  Now, if the Holy Spirit is need for understanding the scripture, then why is it that there are literally thousands of conflicting views?

    As for the beginning of your comment, I think you have missed what I was saying.  Certainly a Christian can come out against this view, but I don’t think it can be strictly based on the bible.  Why?  Because God endorsed the execution of homosexuals “Himself” according to the bible.  There is no escaping this.  It is a fact according to the bible. It’s not that I know more about their faith, though, remember, I was a Christian for most my life and have a biblical studies degree, so I do know something of what I am saying.  Rather, it seems that despite their knowledge of their faith, they are cherry picking and choosing to “gloss over” the uncomfortable parts. 

    If there is a false premise or assumption in my argument, then, please, do tell.  What part of the argument do you disagree with?

  50. Ryan,

    Propositional claims make propositional claims. Stories tell stories. Poems are poems. If I wanted to tell a story, I tell a story,. If I am Simple tautologies.. If a story was a proposition, then it would not be a story but a proposition. Since stories function in a different realm than propositions, they must be read as stories and not propositions. Logic 101

    On the Christian part, I am surprised that you have not heard about the relationship of Christians to law and love. If one believes in the incarnation, then Jesus words in John 15 of “love one another.” takes precedent for those words are God himself speaking, though this to big a topic too big to cover here.

    Again you are restating that, indeed, you know better than those who practice the faith, as you do not “cherry pick” the Bible and take it full as the propositional truth or untruth. Yet, are you cherry picking the other way to prove your point. If that is so, then what to make of that? That is fine to believe that you have the answer and the others don’t. But sometimes you seem shocked that you offend others by stating you better their beliefs better than they know them. Being the source of knowledge and the your reasons fall flat in engaging others and you seem perplexed. The question for you is how are to find peace when those world do not agree with you.

    On the “presence over propositions” I am not sure you have. You seem stuck in a neo-platonic worldview. Propositions, in order to be propositions, have to formed by human words and since human words mirror reality and not capture it, presence has to be over propositions. Or in other words: White Horse is not a horse.

  51. Ernesto -

    If you are claiming that the bible is merely a fictional story, then be my guest.  But narratives, which mean to tell a true story are actually making claims for which there are corresponding propositions.  Even poems can make a point and, hence, can have corresponding propositions.

    As for Jesus’ words, I don’t see your point.  That still doesn’t change the fact that God endorsed executions.  All you seem to be pointing out is inconsistency in the Bible.

    Also, I am not cherry picking at all.  I am well aware of the other passages that call for love, etc.  I have not denied them.  In fact, this one of the reasons I have stated that there is an inconsistency in the bible.

    I still don’t see how I am claiming I know someone’s beliefs better than he/she does. But whether I am or not, it is irrelevant to my argument.  This is a red hearing.  Do you have something to say about my argument?

    With regard to “presence over propositions” what sort of “presence” are you talking about.  I might be wrong, but your analysis does not appear to match Eric’s original usage of the phrase.

  52. Furthermore, I don’t care if people disagree with me, especially if it a rationally based disagreement.  What is irritating is when believers (of any kind) pull the “faith” and “mystery” trump card and insist that they are correct no matter what.  You say I am being offensive, but I could argue that believers are equally offensive by their application of a double standard.  That is, “if evidence and reason work in my favor, then I’ll use it, but if it works against me, then because of faith and mystery I still win and can ignore the evidence and reason.”

  53. Wow. After reading through the discussion, I’m left with two thoughts: First, thank you all for trying to share perspectives mostly respectfully, and second, holding you in thoughts and prayers, Ryan Downie. Your last post pretty much sums it up for you: “I don’t care….” Way to keep the conversation moving.

  54. Marj -

    What a terrible quote mine.  You took my words and grotesquely twisted them.  I said I don’t care if others disagree with me, as in, I don’t expect everyone to agree with me on everything.  What I hope for, however, is the disagreement to be rationally based and not a retreat to faith and mystery.  If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be trying to make a case.  If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be trying to figure this stuff out, I would simply say “screw it” and be on my merry way.  I care very much about truth, which is why I push so hard sometimes (or perhaps all the time).  Please try to keep things within context.

  55. ...

  56. Also, Marj, what really stops conversations is playing the faith card.  When one simply writes something off as being a matter of faith and mystery, there is no way to have a meaningful conversation about it.

  57. Ryan, frustrations noted.

    I would like to offer a few myself. Through the course of this conversation I have witnessed the attempts of several people to appreciatively offer their viewpoints regarding your questions and leading prompts. Aside from entrenching yourself in your own particular conceptual framework, I have not seen you attempt an understanding of what is being offered. You have used a rhetorical style that smacks of condescension. Your logic—such as it is—is simple, but your interpretation of what other are saying reveals your own bias to a particular framework and what seems like a powerful experiential background. You have repeatedly truncated, oversimplified or dismissed others.

    This may be a debate for you, but unfortunately, it seems you have alienated yourself from intelligent adults whose thoughts have validity beyond what you are willing to allow.

    This all culminates in what seems to be an unwillingness to learn from others. Having read your bio, where you propose that learning is your great love, I’m dismayed to see you repeatedly dismiss the viewpoints of others with statements such as “I don’t understand.” In my training, experience and education, a learner does not use such phraseology as a concluding statement, but rather as an opportunity to explore a new perspective.  Further, a learner does not wait for others to reveal his or her lack of understanding, incorporating defensive phrases such as “show me where I’m wrong.”  A learner has initiative and drive to understand the viewpoints of others. Maybe you do this elsewhere in life, but it is lacking from this “conversation.” Over-simplifying the views of others and reinterpreting what they are attempting to communicate using your own experiences hardly qualifies as listening, let alone learning.

    You are the one who set up this authority and logic scenario. Repeatedly, no one has been wiling to engage it on the grounds that they have experienced more than logic has to offer. Your unwillingness to allow such a position has locked it into a sad from of discussion that you alone seem to care about.

    Congrats on your newly minted master’s degree. I hope it serves you well. I also hope that as you pursue a PhD, you choose a program that will challenge your thinking while also helping you learn to appreciate the viewpoints of others. You seem bitter and petty at this point, like you carry a chip on your shoulder. Your thinking seems myopic. Your rhetoric is disrespectful. You bio implies some deep frustrations and potential areas of hurt, but that is just conjecture on my part: I have no idea where this comes from. I have taught students from middle school through masters programs, and across the board, the manner in which you communicate does not convey to me the attitude of a learner.

    For the moment, I’d suggest some homework for you. Though you have stuck to your original question relatively well, you have either missed or dismissed some rather significant trends in the conversation. Rather than ask me to show you, go back through the responses and try to ascertain where your communicative style shut down conversation rather than moved it forward. Take an attempt to learn from several people you don’t seem to respect. That’s another aspect of being a learner: realizing that one can learn from anybody.

    There is no question in my statement. Yet, I fully expect you to take a last shot; it seems your m.o. Trust that for the moment I won’t read it. I’m done feeding a troll.

  58. Ryan, I apologize ... Better that I completed the statement as you offered it. Blogs and posts are not the best tools for me in processing such things. I need the relationship aspect—the face-to-face at least—to lessen the pitfalls of literally reading between the lines. That’s how I best process conversations on faith, face-to-face and with an element of relationship; it’s harder to walk away or slam a verbal “door” on dialogue. Peace.

  59. Marj -

    Thanks.  I too would like to apologize for coming off snappy and abrasive.  I was just very frustrated because I feel like no matter what, religious believers always seem to throw faith and mystery in my face as a way of dismissing any counter evidence to their views.  Daryl is right, I do have a chip on my shoulder and a deep seated bitterness toward responses that, I feel, belittle rational objections by appealing to this faith and mystery.  Daryl thinks I am condescending, and I can understand that I come off that way.  I try not to, but I do tend to get impatient and worked up over these things, which leads me to greater severity to make my point heard.  I understand that it doesn’t generally work too well and I am trying to keep it under better control.  I just wish believers would also understand how condescending it appears when they insist, by faith, that they are correct. 

    I’m positive I overreacted and, so, apologize for that.

  60. Ryan,

    The Bible is 66 different books that contain different genres such as poetry, parables, proverbs .... and too many to list here. When you say that poetry or story is nothing more than propositions, I would like to see you enter a senior poetry workshop and get away with that nonsense.

    You say you get tired of religious people using the mystery card, but I have to point out something again. Daryl’s post did not have to do with your questions. You again came to highjack it to answer your questions. The real issues of LGBTQ in relationship to various Christianity stop being discuss and you turn it into you questions. Then you got mad that no one saw your point. There are plenty of forums that you express yourself, why highjack this one?

    Second, it does not seem like your read Daryl post carefully. Something to ponder is his quoting Benjamin Barber: “

    Dogmatic judgments of black and white in politics and religion come to displace the nuanced complexities of adult morality, while the marks of perpetual childishness are grafted onto adults who indulge in puerility without pleasure, and indolence without innocence.”

  61. Ryan,
    thanks for responding to my short post.  I’d have to agree with Marj, that blog posting is a hard way to communicate or debate.  I welcome the opportunity to mix it up with you on the question.  I actually don’t want to try to win an argument as much as try to convey what I have learned and experienced about God and the Bible over time. 

    I don’t believe that I have checked my brain at the door to become a Christian, although being one is much more than just an intellectual ascent to some doctrine.  A little child can put their trust in Jesus Christ and become His child forever, it’s that simple, but as is shown in just this one blog string, it can challenge the deepest thinking. 

    Faith may seem like circular logic, but again the main transformation that happens in one’s life when they are born from above is supernatural and not earthy.  When God does that work in one of the elect, his mind is opened and he then has the capacity to understand the heavenly whereas he did not before.  I say that understanding the danger of the open door to some false religions that would say just to pray about something and then you will believe.

    The Bible says faith comes by hearing and (real) hearing by the Word of God.  God does call to us to reason together.  He gave us a mind, which is a miracle of design in itself.  Without it we couldn’t be having this discussion, but because of sin even the most brilliant mind has become darkened and unable to comprehend God. 

    If you could get a little more specific in indentifying my circular reasoning I’d love to take another crack at it.

  62. Ernesto -

    Okay, I’m going to attempt to be less reactive here.  Allow me to address your points.

    [“The Bible is 66 different books that contain different genres such as poetry, parables, proverbs .... and too many to list here.”]

    Agreed.  The bible contains many different genres.  I do not contest this.

    [“When you say that poetry or story is nothing more than propositions, I would like to see you enter a senior poetry workshop and get away with that nonsense.”]

    I actually never said nor implied that poetry and story are nothing more than propositions.  I agree that these cannot be reduced to propositions.  What I actually said was that if a story purports to account for something true, then there are corresponding propositions which embody the inherent truth claims.

    Concerning poetry, I said that it can be used to make a point or to express certain ideas, again, for which there is a set of corresponding propositions expressing the same ideas.  Poetry is a medium, and while it may not, in general, be composed of propositions, it is an expressive way to say something, which could have been put in propositional form.  Of course, this may not be true of all poetry, but certainly a great deal of it.

    [“You say you get tired of religious people using the mystery card, but I have to point out something again. Daryl’s post did not have to do with your questions. You again came to highjack it to answer your questions. The real issues of LGBTQ in relationship to various Christianity stop being discuss and you turn it into you questions. Then you got mad that no one saw your point. There are plenty of forums that you express yourself, why highjack this one?”]

    I respectfully disagree.  I did not come to hijack anything.  My observation/question was very relevant.  Even Daryl admitted this and thanked me for pointing out a potential inconsistency.  He was/is objecting to the pastor’s preaching of a morally abhorrent “solution” to homosexuality.  That objection came across as being founded upon his own Christian position and hence the Bible.  I was simply trying to point out that such an objection cannot be solidly based upon the Bible, on account of the fact that God “Himself” sanctioned the execution of homosexuals in a manner worse than what the pastor was advocating.  So, even if one appeals to Jesus’ command to love, one still has to reckon with the fact that God implemented a stricter program than the pastor’s suggestion.  It therefore seems that the Christian cannot object to such suggestions on the grounds that they are inherently immoral.

    The direction of the conversation veered when the response was, in my opinion, to gloss over the problem by appealing to divine mystery and incomprehensibility.  I therefore did not set out to unload a bunch of my questions, but merely followed the direction of the conversation by attacking the particular type of response approach.

  63. Dennis -

    Thank you for your response.  I apologize for coming off much too blunt before.  Allow me to address some of your points.

    [“Faith may seem like circular logic, but again the main transformation that happens in one’s life when they are born from above is supernatural and not earthy.”]

    Here we have a claim.  From what I can gather, it seems one can pull out the following conditional:

    If one is born from above, then the transformation in his/her life is supernatural.

    It may surprise you, but I actually agree to this.  The reason, however, that I can agree to this is that it seems tautological.  In other words, the idea of being “born from above” is already contained in the idea of being supernatural and so it is akin to saying something like P implies P; it is true simply by virtue of the terms being used.  The question is whether there is any meaning to the idea of being “born from above” and, more than this, whether it is actually real or not.

    What we can say is that faith does change lives. I do not contest this.  What one cannot assume, however, is how it does this - e.g. by claiming that it is supernatural.  There is much evidence that the changes faith can bring are psychological in nature.  This is bolstered by the fact that ANY faith can be life changing (for the better).  This is why many conflicting religions can appeal to the same life change and experience as “evidence” of being real.  But given that they cannot all be right, it seems that life transformation is not indicative of anything divine.  Even purely secular programs such as the power of positive thinking can produce similar effects of life change and enlightenment.

    [“When God does that work in one of the elect, his mind is opened and he then has the capacity to understand the heavenly whereas he did not before.  I say that understanding the danger of the open door to some false religions that would say just to pray about something and then you will believe.”]

    This seems like a big problem indeed.  You mention “false religions”, but given that others claim the same sorts of things, how can you be sure yours isn’t the false religion?  It seems like you are putting the cart before the horse.  One must always start with his/her own understanding.  This is inescapable.  So, your understanding that God has granted you understanding seems circular and unverifiable.

    We can talk about the elect in another thread perhaps, but I would definitely like to discuss this with you because I think it is a horribly immoral and illogical concept.  I do not mean that as an insult, but as an expression of my honest sentiments toward this doctrine.

    [“The Bible says faith comes by hearing and (real) hearing by the Word of God.”]

    My question would be, why should I believe the Bible?  Also, this seems like a formulaic statement, yet many hear the supposed word of God, but are not convinced.  Faith is not produced.  Of course, you could always say that in such cases the person didn’t REALLY hear or listen, but this would be nothing but a forced presumption.

    [“God does call to us to reason together.  He gave us a mind, which is a miracle of design in itself.  Without it we couldn’t be having this discussion, but because of sin even the most brilliant mind has become darkened and unable to comprehend God. “]

    I wonder though, if God must enlighten the darkened mind of the unregenerate, then what could be the point of reasoning?  It would be a futile activity.  If we cannot comprehend God, then on what basis do we judge whether something is actually from God?  One could make all manner of illogical and immoral claims concerning God and simply appeal to the fact that God is incomprehensible to us mere mortals.  You are left begging the question.  So, even if it is true that God is incomprehensible, that merely leaves us out of luck.  The probability of getting anything right about God would be pretty well 0.  Thus, it would be better to simply forego any ideas of God and focus on what we can comprehend.

  64. Ryan,

    Thanks so much for putting the time in to organize your response.  There is alot there and I will be thinking through my response.  I’m looking forward to more interaction here!

  65. I think this is a great discussion, and one that will sharpen everyone involved.  But I want to point out one aspect that might be missing.  We live in a culture that values science, technology, and logic probably more than it should.  I see it as a kind of “science bubble,” much like the housing bubble.  I say this as someone who loves science.  We are all products of this culture and tend to value science and logic very highly. 

    But I think it becomes a problem when we demand that God prove himself scientifically or logically.  Who died and made logic king?  Does anybody even know if logic works when applied to God?  And where does this leave beauty, art, and love.  Are they just byproducts of hormones?  To reduce poetry and the literature of the Bible to propositions is, in my feeble opinion as a non-theologian, to misunderstand poetry and the Bible. 

    Religion does not have to play second fiddle to science.  It is at least of equal importance, if not a great deal more.  Those who stand on logic and throw stones at religion do themselves a disservice.  God and religion will never be proven or disproven by logic or science, and I think there is a good reason why this should be the case.

  66. Bruce -

    I would say that logic has always been king.  It applies to everything and there is nothing which can escape it.  To even talk about something meaningfully logic must apply.  If one says that logic does not apply to God, then effectively one is saying that God is meaningless and so we cannot even discuss it.  In other words, if logic does not apply to God, then there is no meaningful proposition that can be made about God.  For instance, one certainly could not claim that God is loving or truthful in any meaningful way, since one could say the opposite as well and there would be no logical basis to establish which, if either, is true.  In fact, one could not even say that God exists, since “God does not exist” would equally apply.

  67. So, just for the record, in your view, God cannot do anything that human beings consider illogical?  Miracles cannot happen if they are illogical?

  68. Well, it’s not as simple as just considering something illogical.  Obviously, something can seem illogical at first, but after deeper analysis come to make sense.  However, there are things we know to be impossible.  For instance, God could never make a square circle.  “He” could never make 2+2 = 5.  In fact, “He” could never realize a contradiction.

    Also, when it comes to what we should believe, mere possibility is not enough.  We ought to go with what is most likely given what we know.

  69. So if logic is king, and God can’t do anything that logic doesn’t allow, then God isn’t really God?  Who needs God?  Everything is dictated by logic.

  70. Ryan,

    Reading you last response, I think you have collapsed logic and truth. I wonder if you know enough about logic that logically valid us different than truth. One can logical and mistaken about reality and correct in he reality and illogical. Logic is the process that perform on one’s permises and has nothing to do with how one generate a permise. I am Christian and my logic is impeccable. Every test i have taken about my logical ability, I have passed with flying colors. No surprise as I have been college trained in Symbolic logic, and Aristotelian logic. i was my logic tutor at my university.  Where I have seen you struggl is in a couple ways. First you assume what a Christian’s permises should be, and then when say no that is not their permises, you get angry that they are not being logical, when it is you who is not being logical. Many of the premises that you think I should hold, I don’t and others should hold, but they don’t so you must invent their illogic. Hindus, Muslims, Flat earthers, even paranoid can all be logical. Logic says nothing about the world, but only want our permises will lead. In conclusion I would like to mention aluminum.

  71. Bruce -

    Why would God not be God?

  72. Ernesto -

    [“I wonder if you know enough about logic that logically valid us different than truth. One can logical and mistaken about reality and correct in he reality and illogical.”]

    Yes, I agree.  One can be logical and yet mistaken.  This is true when one must use inductive logic or make inferences to what is most probable.  However, it is not true that one can be mistaken in deductive logic provided the premises are true and the form valid.

    Also, I agree that one could accidentally be correct about something.  I never said that these things weren’t true.  But then it couldn’t be said that the person KNOWS he/she is correct.

    What this doesn’t mean, however, is that what is true is illogical.  What is true cannot be contradictory.

    [“Logic is the process that perform on one’s permises and has nothing to do with how one generate a permise.”]

    Well, yes and no.  Logic in a broader sense is concerned with how we generate premises because for an argument to be sound it must have true premises and so the premises must be supported.

    [“First you assume what a Christian’s permises should be, and then when say no that is not their permises, you get angry that they are not being logical, when it is you who is not being logical. Many of the premises that you think I should hold, I don’t and others should hold, but they don’t so you must invent their illogic.”]

    This is not true.  I didn’t assume what Christian’s premises should be.  I made an argument using two assumptions that Christians generally make and a premiss supported by the Bible.  If you have a specific denial of one of these, then make it and we can go from there.  Tell me which assumption you don’t hold to or why you think the premiss is false.  What I got irritated over was the faulty counter response, which was to throw mystery at the issue.

    [“Hindus, Muslims, Flat earthers, even paranoid can all be logical. Logic says nothing about the world, but only want our permises will lead.”]

    Again, yes and no.  Logical principles do tell us something about the world and how it must work.  Yes, flat earthers can be logical in a broad sense, but that doesn’t make the flat earth position logical/rational.

  73. Well, I guess it depends upon your view of God, or if you have one?  If logic is king, then I don’t see a need for two kings.  One is enough, isn’t it?

  74. Bruce -

    To say that God would not be God seems like a case of equivocation.  All it says is that a being designated as God is not some other conception of God.  It would only mean that however we define God, it cannot be as something that defies reason or logic.

    Now, logic is not a thing and to say that it is “king” is just a metaphorical way of saying it applies to everything.  This would not prevent there from being a supreme being.  The traditional approach is to claim that logic is a necessary part of God’s nature.

  75. If God cannot defy logic, then I don’t see him as much of a supreme being.  Supreme over what?  Certainly not logic?  If you say that logic is part of God’s nature, then are you saying the “supreme being” is incapable of changing his own nature?  Then he’s not supreme over himself?  It still sounds to me like logic is supreme and not God.  Who needs God then?

  76. Bruce -

    I can’t say I understand your jump from “God is not supreme over logic” to the (I think) rhetorical question “who needs God then?”.

    I don’t think I have ever come across a reputable Christian philosopher who has held that God can defy logic or that has required God to be able to change “His” nature.

    In this case, you would not even have a coherent God at all.  What use would a “God” be that was completely irrational and unpredictable?  What use would a “God” be that could alter “His” own nature?  There would be nothing stable, nothing to even have faith in.  Jesus might be your saving grace one moment, but in the next moment, Jesus might have nothing to do with God.  Or God might cease to exist.  Or “He” might become evil.  Or God might decide to send you to hell anyway.  Even though you don’t hold to a literal understanding of the bible, in what sense could it be said to have any insight or wisdom concerning God?  It might all be obsolete.

    I think that to say that even God must be subject to the laws of logic is a small price to pay given the alternative.

  77. I think all reputable Christian philosophers hold that God can defy logic if they believe in miracles?  I have never heard of Christian philosopher who does not believe in miracles, and to my understanding miracles are miracles precisely because they defy logic.  If they obeyed logic then they wouldn’t be miracles. 

    But I am not searching for what is expedient, which you seem to imply above.  I want what is real and true, not what is useful.  If God is real but not useful (or evil), than so be it.  If God is useful but not real, then what good does that do me in the end?  It’s just wishful thinking. 

    So to me it makes no sense for God to be subject to the laws of logic.  In that case I would forget about God and start bowing down to logic. 

  78. Bruce -

    You can’t have your cake and eat it to.  On what basis do you appeal to sense?  It’s ironic that you mention what is “real”.  Only logical things can be real or true.  In other words, logic applies to anything real or true.

    As for miracles, no philosophers define them as events defying logic.  They may see them as suspensions of natural law, but not contra the laws of logic.

    Why would you bow down to logic?  Again, logic is not a “thing”.

  79. I believe I disagree with all three of your statements above:

    Logic can apply equally well to fiction as to that which is real.  I use logic in my science fiction all the time.  In fact, that is the difference between well-written fiction and poorly written fiction.  Well-written fiction makes good logical sense, it just isn’t true. 

    I have never seen a Christian philosopher stipulate between suspensions of logic and of natural law.  Miracles can do both. 

    One could certainly bow to logic.  In my thinking, that is what Dawkins, Krauss, and you do.

    I think the difference between us is I view logic as an extension of human intuition, and I believe you view logic as an element of physical reality.  There is a big difference between these positions, and neither one has been proven or disproven.  My problem with you and many theoretical physicists and mathematicians is to just assume that logic and math are elements of physical reality when that is a rather big assumption. 

    If you were truly a skeptic you would apply your skepticism to your own belief in logic as an inherent aspect of physical reality, but you don’t.  That is my problem with your viewpoint.

  80. Bruce -

    [“Logic can apply equally well to fiction as to that which is real.  I use logic in my science fiction all the time.  In fact, that is the difference between well-written fiction and poorly written fiction.  Well-written fiction makes good logical sense, it just isn’t true. “]

    I think you misunderstood me.  I said only logical things CAN be true or if something is true, then it is logical or subject to logic.  From that, it does not follow that fictional things cannot be logical.  If I argued

    (1)  If something is true, then it is subject to logic.
    (2) X is fictional - i.e. not true.
    (3) Therefore X is illogical or not subject to logic

    then I would be committing a fallacy called “denying the antecedent”.  So, bringing up fiction doesn’t affect my statement.

    [“I have never seen a Christian philosopher stipulate between suspensions of logic and of natural law.  Miracles can do both. “]

    Actually, no philosopher even considers the conceivability of miracles being a suspension of logic.  Here is how prominent Christian philosopher William Lane Craig describes miracles:
    “... [miracles] are naturally (or physically) impossible events, events which at certain times and places cannot be produced by the relevant natural causes.”

    [“One could certainly bow to logic.  In my thinking, that is what Dawkins, Krauss, and you do.”]

    How?  What does it mean to “bow down to logic”?

    [“My problem with you and many theoretical physicists and mathematicians is to just assume that logic and math are elements of physical reality when that is a rather big assumption.”]

    As I said before, logic is not a thing, so I’m not really sure what you mean by being an element of physical reality.  Rather, it applies to physical reality.

    [“If you were truly a skeptic you would apply your skepticism to your own belief in logic as an inherent aspect of physical reality, but you don’t.  That is my problem with your viewpoint.”]

    To be skeptical requires logic.  There is no way to be skeptical of logic without being self-defeating.

  81. “Actually, no philosopher even considers the conceivability of miracles being a suspension of logic.”

    Following a logical proposition, then, it does not follow that God cannot be illogical?  How does a Christian philosopher simply not bringing up the subject somehow translate into God being bound by logic?  If I said:

    X: John did not say the house was red.

    Does that mean the house is not red?  Also, John could be wrong about the house, or perhaps he has never seen the house?  There are almost an infinite number of possibilities.

    “To be skeptical requires logic.  There is no way to be skeptical of logic without being self-defeating.”

    Yes there is.  You should be skeptical of the limits of your logic.  Logic is useful for understanding our world.  It is not useful when applied to God.  If you don’t understand the limits of your trade then you don’t understand your trade.

  82. “If you don’t understand the limits of your trade then you don’t understand your trade.”
    By the way, not meaning you personally, just an objective statement.

  83. Ryan,

    Most professional logicians I know, and i have met more than my fair share when I was the logic tutor during my University days,  introduce their field by asking their students whether certain arguments were logically valid and which were not. In the arguments would those that were logically valid and absurd in the the world like:
    All male elephants has purple and orange stripes. -
    Sally is a male elephant. Therefor Sally has purple and orange stripes.(logically valid)

    and other arguments like The Bitterroot mountains is filled mostly with black bears.
    In the Bitter Root range, I spot Bear dung, therefor it must have come from a Black Bear. (logical invalid)

    They do so to get their students to understand that logic truth is different from empirical truth. You have and continue to collapse the two. So, your conversation has turn to emotion (I get frustrated) and opinion based (I agree), which makes rather unproductive for me. -

    By the way, have you notice any of the allusions to known logical problems I have been making? After all, ““If you don’t understand the limits of your trade then you don’t understand your trade.” are very wise words. After all nothing exists, at least in the specious present.

  84. Bruce -

    Part of the purpose of a definition is to be precise.  So, if a philosopher defines a miracle as only indicating God causing an event that would otherwise be physically impossible, then that is all the philosopher means.  You cannot say that because the philosopher didn’t mention logic that, therefore, miracles mean a suspension of logic as well.  Notice that the definition doesn’t mention applesauce.  Does that mean that miracles involve applesauce?

    [” Logic is useful for understanding our world.  It is not useful when applied to God.”]

    Then I guess God isn’t a part of reality.  By saying this, you are sawing off the branch you are sitting on.  It is terribly ironic that you have to use logic to try and make your point, a point about God even.  You seem to think that God is real or that it is true that God exists, correct?  So, is God subject to truth?  Is God bound by the fact that “He” exists?

  85. Ernesto -

    I am not collapsing empirical truth and logic.  But I am saying that they are inseparable.  Reality is characterized by logical relationships.  Empirical truth is never illogical or contradictory.

  86. I am not saying that miracles necessarily imply a suspension of logic.  I am saying that you and I simply don’t know, and neither do any of the Christian philosophers to whom you are alluding.  According to my interpretation, God and miracles are “out of the inference zone” of logic and reason. 

    You and I are in agreement!  Finally!  I would agree that God isn’t a part of human reality as we know it.  We only know God as he chooses to reveal himself to us infinitely limited creatures.  He is completely out of our reach using logic, reason, math.  Language breaks down when it tries to describe God.  “Existence” and “truth” are words that do not do justice to God.  They are merely feeble attempts we despicable humans use to describe the concept of “God” to each other.  We are so far below God that words, logic, and reason are ineffectually useless.  By God’s grace he doesn’t strike us dead when we refer to him in such feeble terms.

  87. Bruce-

    On your view I don’t see how we could know anything about God even if “He” chose to reveal “Himself”.  How would you know it was God?

    Also, do you realize that there is a difference between the propositions:

    1. God is out of reach of human use of logic and reason.
    2. God is not subject to logic.

    These are not the same.  To some degree I could concede to 1, but I will never grant you 2.

    Finally, you did not answer my question.  Is God subject to truth?

  88. Bruce -

    Also, I have to say, for someone who doesn’t think we can use logic and reasoning with regards to God, you sure seem to know a lot about this being.  You somehow know that it exists and has revealed itself.  Of all the claimed revelations, you seem to know which one is actually from God.  You seem to know what this God wants, how it feels and that you can have a relationship with it.  Somehow, you also seem to know that it has a “son” and offers some kind of afterlife.  You somehow know that it is gracious.  I’m really curious as to how you have acquired such a detailed knowledge and extrapolated so much from a proposed being that transcends all rational inquiry, even logic itself!

  89. “Also, do you realize that there is a difference between the propositions:

    1. God is out of reach of human use of logic and reason.
    2. God is not subject to logic.

    These are not the same.  To some degree I could concede to 1, but I will never grant you 2.”

    Whether they are different or not doesn’t matter to me as a puny human being.  I treat them as the same.  God is both out of reach and not subject to human logic.

    For your second point, how do you know what I “know” about God?  I haven’t claimed any of the points you make in that paragraph.  I think I made a statement earlier that I knew nothing of God’s existence.  Remember, I don’t think God is subject to logic as you do.  I think you are collapsing faith and logical knowledge.  They are very different animals.  If I claim knowledge about God, I place myself above God.  If I have faith and hope that God exists and is gracious, I place myself below God.  This is a very different attitude.

  90. “I am not collapsing empirical truth and logic.  But I am saying that they are inseparable.  Reality is characterized by logical relationships.  Empirical truth is never illogical or contradictory.”

    Your last statement in symbolic logic. -(L :⇔ E ) ∧ (L :⇔ E) + (E⇔R⇔L) ⇒(E⇔L) which of course is logically invalid. If you remove your first part of what you said (the contradiction)  that you are not collapsing the two and make your next claim, then you have arrive at the central claim of logical positivism, which really didn’t survive the savage beating Quine and others gave it in the early sixties. These debates occurred within the philosophy of science and math and had nothing to do with religion, just an aside.

    Again, whether you want to admit it or not, professional logicians make a distinction between logic and Empirical truth. That divide is real and if it was not in the religious realm, you would have not trouble agreeing with it.

  91. Ernesto -

    You cannot show my statement incorrect by attempting to put it into symbolic logic.  Being invalid has to do with the logical form of an argument and whether a conclusion is entailed by the premisses.  My statement was not an argument, but a clarification of my position.  Besides, your symbolic logic does not characterize what I said, you are purposely setting it up in a way to make it invalid.  Saying that logic and truth are inseparable is not the same as claiming that they are logically equivalent.  That is your own misinterpretation.

    You also seem bent on me advocating logical positivism, which is not the case.  Again, that is your own projection.  In fact, I don’t even know what your point is.  What exactly are you trying to argue?  Again, it is ironic that you are so heavily focused on using logic to make whatever point you are trying to make.

    Is there a distinction between logic and empirical truth?  Yes!  I have never denied this.  All I have said is that truth (ANY truth) is never illogical or contradictory.  You seem to agree to this as you wouldn’t have bothered pointing out what you thought was a contradiction in my own position otherwise.  So, what are you really arguing with me over?  In all matters of truth, logic applies.

  92. Bruce -

    If all you do is hope, then fine.  I guess we cannot take this any further.  I still wonder, though, why you even believe any of the things I mentioned.  You are still extrapolating a tremendous amount of detail from a very nebulous idea.  On your view, the probability of getting anything right about this God, that may or may not exist, is pretty much 0.  So, why bother believing anything about it, let alone arguing in its favor?

    Lastly, I still want to know: according to you, is God subject to truth?

  93. Ryan,

    Said you did not collapse the two then reiterating the two are inseparable. That is why place them in relation to in symbolic.  I realize I have been using logic in the normal and technical understanding, but how you are using the word does not make sense in these categories. What is your definition of logic?

    For me, logic is the study of valid reasoning. 

    Second, I am not putting or bent on putting you in the logical positivists camp, your words are. Twice I have pointed out your words lead to a logical positive understanding by extending your arguments to their logical conclusion. Once when you quote and agreed with Hitchen and the above quote and with your last statement out empirical truth as related to reality and logic. Whether you wear the brand or call it something else, it is logical positivism.

  94. Ernesto -

    I am using “logic” in both a broad sense and a narrow sense.  The narrow sense is the study of valid reasoning.  The broad sense refers to the principles, which apply to everything, such as the law of non-contradiction.

    [“Said you did not collapse the two then reiterating the two are inseparable.”]

    Yes, and those are not logically equivalent statements.  Truth and logic need not be taken as logically equivalent in order for them to be inseparable.  This conversation is inseparable from language, but that doesn’t mean that this conversation is logically equivalent to language.

    [“Second, I am not putting or bent on putting you in the logical positivists camp, your words are.”]

    As I have remarked on this before, logical positivism has to do with the meaningfulness of statements or propositions.  Logical positivism states that only tautologies or empirically verifiable statements are meaningful.  Thus theology was ruled out as meaningless nonsense, not on account of it being illogical or self-contradictory, but simply because it didn’t fit into one of the two above categories.  Theology was ruled out as being incoherent in principle.

    Nowhere have I made any such claim or argument.  I am not contesting the meaningfulness of general theological claims.  They do say something.  In fact, to evaluate them using logic and reason assumes they have meaning.  But that doesn’t mean they can be illogical and still true.  If a claim is ruled out on account of *actually* being incoherent and irrational, this IS NOT logical positivism.  So, your accusation is simply misguided.

    [“Twice I have pointed out your words lead to a logical positive understanding by extending your arguments to their logical conclusion.”]

    No, you haven’t.  On both accounts you misconstrued my position and turned it into something having to do with logical positivism.  Again, you are actually supporting my position by ironically using logic to *attempt* to reduce my position to something contradictory-i.e. something we know cant’ be true.  You are evaluating my position with logic and then making a judgment about whether it could be correct.  Now, in doing this you are actually attacking a straw man, but your overall process is supporting my *actual* position quite nicely.

    [“Once when you quote and agreed with Hitchen [sic]”]

    Yes, and I still do agree with him.  But as I argued before, his statement is not equivalent to the logical positivist maxim.

    [”...and the above quote and with your last statement out empirical truth as related to reality and logic.”]

    Again, claiming that empirical truth is related to reality and logic is not logical positivism.  In fact, empirical *truth* is, by definition, related to reality and logic.  If it is *true*, then it corresponds to reality.  More precisely, suppose P is a proposition about some empirical truth.  Then, by definition P is true and corresponds to reality.  Immediately, -P is false, which is an application of logic, specifically the law of non-contradiction.

  95. Wow, you logitians are way over my head!

    Ryan, you said “On your view, the probability of getting anything right about this God, that may or may not exist, is pretty much 0.  So, why bother believing anything about it, let alone arguing in its favor?” 

    I agree.  I know next to nothing about God,  It may even be nothing.  I think the existence of all the flavors of religion kind of prove this point.  But lucky for me, knowledge isn’t all that important in this life.  What’s really important is beauty, art, and love.  It’s my love for God that drives me to know him more, and I see through the eyes of faith.  I know that statement won’t mean anything to you because it’s literary art, but that’s where I’m coming from. 

    “Is God subject to truth?”  I don’t believe in a universal truth.  i don’t believe in any universals.  I believe God is truth, so in my view truth only exists as God exists.

  96. Bruce -

    [” But lucky for me, knowledge isn’t all that important in this life.”]

    But before you said that you don’t care about what is expedient, you care about what is true.  That seems to concern knowledge.  You also, turn right around and say, “It’s my love for God that drives me to KNOW him more…”(emphasis mine).  You just said you know next to nothing about God, so why are you now saying “know him *more*”?  What makes you think you know “Him” at all?

    [“I don’t believe in a universal truth.  i don’t believe in any universals.”]
    vs
    [” I believe God is truth…”]

    This doesn’t make sense to me.  It seems contradictory.  So that I don’t mischaracterize your position, can you elaborate on what you mean by this?  If you affirm the statement: there are no universals, haven’t you just claimed to believe a universal?

    [“so in my view truth only exists as God exists.”]

    Now you seem to be saying that logic does apply to God, since you can make this positive statement.  How do you know this or why do you believe it?

  97. I think the difference is that our views of logic are different.  I view logic as an extension of human intuition, and useful for language and categorization.  But I don’t believe logic is a universal.  So when I use logic to describe God, I am using that logic as a part of my language and means of conveying an idea.  I don’t mean that logic to be any kind of universal truth. 

    It sounds like when you hear my descriptions of God, you are trying to apply my language to a universal truth, when that is not my intention, since I don’t believe in a universal truth.

  98. Bruce,

    “I agree.  I know next to nothing about God,  It may even be nothing.  I think the existence of all the flavors of religion kind of prove this point.  But lucky for me, knowledge isn’t all that important in this life.  What’s really important is beauty, art, and love.  It’s my love for God that drives me to know him more, and I see through the eyes of faith.  I know that statement won’t mean anything to you because it’s literary art, but that’s where I’m coming from.”

    Wow, that is poetry man. It really touch.

  99. * Me (I click to quickly.)

  100. Bruce -

    Honestly, that sounds like a really confusing belief.  I’m not sure how you can maintain that there are no universals. It appears self-defeating.

    Also, I am bewildered as to how you can criticize my position.  By holding to no universal truth, I don’t see how you can rightly argue with me over my belief, unless you believe you are correct or advocating a universal truth.

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